« Three of my Favorite Things: Clarkson, Cars, and Capitalism | Main | Should we be teaching arbitration? »

12/16/2009

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

gs

1. A modest proposal: since the Interstate Commerce Clause unduly stifles our wise and benevolent governmental hierarchy, let's repeal the Clause and give every US state "universal jurisdiction" about what happens in every other state. (Seriously--good point about the Somali pirates--, I agree with the poster that universal jurisdiction has a legitimate though limited place. Unfortunately, universal jurisdiction may be becoming as hard to limit as the Elastic Clause was.)

2. I was horrified by the Pinochet affair: the next time it is more cost-effective to buy out an entrenched thug dictator than to remove him by force, the thug will remember what happened to Pinochet.

Richard Millard

There's a simple and easy way to put a stop to this, and an American administration that had any guts would use it.

All it takes is for President Obama to stand up and say, the next time a Spanish or Belgian judge issues a writ against Rumsfeld, Bush, Yoo or any other American for actions taken in furtherance of official American policy, that America views these proceedings against its government officials as acts of war, and that any attempt to seize American citizens under this type of order will be met with a full exercise of American power, including military force.

End of problem.

Steven

I was pretty sure the basis for Nuremberg was that the victors were acting in their jurisdiction as the (occupation) government of Germany and Japan. The legal innovation was the concept of crimes against humanity, which included acts that were not otherwise violations of German/Japanese laws.

Thomass

Another, more nebulous problem (i.e., hard to explain), is that leftists tend to equate murder and death with any disagreement on policy. It’s a basic core identity trait…

Joe Lieberman just got a refresher in the game. Warmonger on Iraq to the left and thereby a man with blood on his hands (whereas, if you don’t support military operation supported by the left, you’re an isolationist and probably also guilty for the casualties caused by inaction)… he was just tarred in similar terms by the usual suspects for not supporting ‘health care reform’.

So, any disagreement on a policy will be a means towards a lawsuit. Regardless of reason, facts, room for disagreement… et ecetera… Don’t support the left on something, you’re an international criminal (they'll figure out how... somehow)...

Morton Doodslag

I am no lawyer -- but if the overheated rhetoric of the Left is to be believed, many in Europe (and sadly the USA) consider Bush & Co. to be a rogue operation on par with the Somali pirates or other terrorists. They regularly assert that the Bush's administration is guilty of high crimes including terrorism, torture, and crimes against humanity. Some of these opinions were even espoused by high ranking government representatives in Europe viz. Jaschka Fischer (Foreign Minister of Germany) comparing Bush to Hitler in his 2002 election campaign.

Of course such assertions are insane, but millions of dangerous Leftists, some of whom are actually running nations in Europe, would assert that: "Absent some form of universal jurisdiction, there is no chance of punishing and deterring such crimes."

It seems that your logic for excluding the application of Universal Jurisdiction against figures like Bush & Co. is basically the same logic used by far left nut cases to employ it.

mark arnold

There is no question that the Nuremberg trials ere a clear case of victors' justice. Admiral Doenitz, who headed the u-boat campaign, got ten years in Spandau for waging illegal submarine warfare -- precisely the same kind of submarine warfare that the U.S. practiced against Japan.

Akatsukami

I suggest that attempts to assert universal jurisdiction over those with no respect for their own laws, let alone others, will be futile, if not actually negative. Knowing that precludes the attempt, from a lack of will amounting to cowardice.

Fat Man

"I don't think we should eliminate universal jurisdiction. ... It should be vigorously used against Somali pirates ..."

This would be more interesting if any country had attempted to clean out the Somali pirate's nest. The fact is that they haven't, and they have acted like they don't want to touch it. Maybe the concept should follow the intestinal fortitude of the West into Davy Jones' locker.

Matt

I'm not completely sure how I feel about universal jurisdiction. I can see some arguments for it for particularly serious crimes, but also some real drawbacks. But my understanding is that when Garzón went after Pinochet it wasn't on the basis of universal jurisdiction, but rather on the grounds that some of the people killed by death squads operating under Pinochet's direction were Spanish citizens and that he therefore had jurisdiction under normal Spanish law, just as a US court would, at least arguably, under US law. I think he's a big proponent of universal jurisdiction, but my understanding is that the actual cases he's brought have not made use of it. Is that not right? If it is right then the criticism here is at least a little bit off on the factual matter.

LarryD

If some State got offended enough by, say, Spain's judge Baltasar Garzón, and downgraded relationships to a state of hostility, not just of Spain but the entire EU (which supposedly has a united foriegn policy). the negatives might be brought home.

The Allies at least had the justification that many of the war crimes were commited against their solders, and in some cases civilians, and as victors, they had at least temporary jurisdiction over (and responsibility for and to) other victims.

But an functioning and unconquered State might well consider a claim of universal jurisdiction against its official acting in their official capacity, as an Act of War.

Cornellian

"Today's version of universal jurisdiction masquerades as a legal concept, but is in fact a form of political morality. It empowers prosecutions in states with little or even no connection to alleged offenses such as war crimes and gross abuses of human rights."

Bolton is hardly in a position to complain about universal jurisdiction in other countries since he claims it for America. In his view, America's right of self defense gives it the right to intervene militarily anywhere in the world, subject only to the military difficulty (so we won't invade Russia), economic self interest (so we won't invade China) or desire not to alienate countries we like (so we won't invade Britain). Frankly, given the choice between a foreign country that confers jurisdiction over me on its courts even though a I live in the US, and a foreign country that claims the right to bomb me here in the US, I'll choose the former.

Anne Herzberg

Universal jurisdiction isn't necessarily a bad thing if proper controls are in place such as a requirement for Attorney General or other Executive approval of such cases. But it is appalling that NGOs and other private actors, who wish to circumvent foreign policy they disagree with and interfere with diplomatic relations, have the ability to secure arrest warrants without the knowledge of government officials

Please see my monograph on NGO "Lawfare": Exploitation of Courts in the Arab-Israeli Conflict and my oped in the wsj for more on universal jurisdiction cases against Israelis.

http://www.ngo-monitor.org/data/images/File/lawfare-monograph.pdf

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122583394143998285.html

Anne Herzberg, Legal Advisor
NGO Monitor (www.ngo-monitor.org)

willis

"There is no question that the Nuremberg trials ere a clear case of victors' justice. Admiral Doenitz, who headed the u-boat campaign, got ten years in Spandau for waging illegal submarine warfare -- precisely the same kind of submarine warfare that the U.S. practiced against Japan."

Doenitz headed a u-boat campaign against the US for an extended period of time when the US was not at war with Germany. How can you equate that to the US waging a u-boat campaign against Japan which had declared and iniated war against the US before we iniated military action of any kind?

John Farren

Bolton stated: "It is no accident that arrest warrants never seem to be issued for the likes of Kim Jong Il or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, since the real targets of universal jurisdiction these days are Western nations."

He may well be correct about the underlying motivation; however in relation to the case of Ms. Livni, I have read that had she been a serving minister a warrant could not have been issued, as one was refused for Ehud Barak from the same court. See http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article6958044.ece

As Kim etc. tend to remain in office, they also tend to keep sovreign immunity.

IIRC this was a major issue in the arguments between Sudan and the Hague Court on the indictment of Pres. Bashir: the ICC has determined that it may indict but cannot prosecute present holders of state office.

In most European countries there are now requirements for consultation with govt. attorneys before issuing warrants based on universal jurisdiction: Britain is the only country both upholding universality and without means for the attorney general to tell the courts to stop being silly, due to the combination of the 1957 Geneva Conventions Act and the 2001 International Criminal Court Act.

Typical failure of the Labour govt. lawyers to think issues through, in other words. I predict this will be remedied as soon as parliamentary time becomes available (i.e.after the election).

In continental Europe, it is notable that so far at least suits have been filed or magistrates investigations initiated against e.g. John Yoo, Gen. Franks, Rumsfeld etc. but so far all have been dismissesd, dropped, blocked or had the responsible magistrate replaced.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Social Media

Bookmark and Share
Follow ProfBainbridge on Twitter

Awards

Paying Bills

What I'm Reading

Blogs I Read


Blog powered by TypePad