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01/28/2010

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Mike

Query: what did you think of the President condemning a SCOTUS ruling right to their faces? And saying something about it that was, according to Politifact, barely true about foreign donations?

I'm not trying to be a partisan jerk or anything. I honestly what your sense of the proper decorum is from both branches.

Steve Bainbridge

Mike: The record shows that Presidents have often criticized Supreme Court rulings in the SOTU. In addition to being time-sanctioned, I think it's perfectly legitimate for a President to comment on the impact SCOTUS rulings have had on the state of the union. Especially if the President is going to ask Congress to pass legislation to undo a court opinion.

This is why I would not attend if I were a SCOTUS member. I don't have the mental equanimity to listen to that sort of criticism without responding with the proverbial finger. Better to stay home and watch Top Gear reruns.

Jeff

If Obama had not lied about what the ruling entailed then Alito would never have mouthed a thing. If you think its ok for Obama to spit in the face of the court and expect them to sit there and take it then your idea of decorum to twisted beyond parody.

Just Some Guy

The SCOTUS is a political body. We must merely admit that fact-- it's a common argument in SCOTUS analysis, and for gosh sakes, when we have lightweights on the court, who can think otherwise?

So: Obama's attack was just fine, and Alito's response was just fine, and we're going to have to get used to the fact that the law is not THE LAW.

JHE

Alito didn't disrupt Obama's speech. Nor was he deliberatly trying to draw attention to himself. Therefore, Alito's reaction wasn't inappropriate at all.

I'm more troubled by how deeply dishonest our President is. He knew that foreign companies could not donate unlimited monies under this ruling.

Lester Dent

Prof. Bainbridge -

Do you know of any SOTU speeches where a president has openly criticized a fresh opinion in the faces of the justices who rendered it? I know of none, but admit I have not researched it. Most presidential comments I can recall (re Roe v. Wade, Dredd Scott, etc.) are regarding long-settled cases where there may be no justices remaining who voted on it.

Michael Kennedy

I don't think we will see them there next year, except possibly Ginsberg and Sotomayor.

Doc Merlin

Agreed, Steve.

ic

Mike: The record shows that Presidents have often criticized Supreme Court rulings in the SOTU.

The problem in this case was, the President was saying an untruth, that in a less decorous venue, an honest person would say "the President lied".

SteveM

I agree with Greenwald that Alito's reaction was inappropriate, but I disagree with Greenwald's remedy. I think the core of the problem is that the Supreme Court is not "apolitical, separate and detached from partisan wars." Since the Warren Court era, the SCOTUS has routinely seen fit to weigh in as the final arbiter of one political and cultural debate after another. The solution therefore is simple: Unless the plain text of the Constitution as understood by the Framers is being violated, the SCOTUS ought to leave "inflammatory and passionate political disputes" to the political sphere.

I agree with you here in general, but your remedy has no bearing on the First Amendment case in dispute between Obama and the Court.

Does it?

SteveM

(Meant to put your words in quotes, sorry)

mark l.

"I don't think we will see them there next year, except possibly Ginsberg and Sotomayor."

I don't think we'll see many of the same congress critters, either.

W J Alden

You're absolutely right that Alito's reaction was inappropriate. I mean, well, gosh, it was hard to hear all the clapping, cheering, howling, standing and stomping going on every five seconds over the noise of Justice Alito silently shaking his head and mouthing a few words of disagreement.

The SOTU is mere political theatre. If Obama chooses to make it a slightly more vulgar form of theatre than it has been in the past, then so be it. Don't expect his audience to not respond in kind.

Fatty Bolger

I agree with the other commenters. Alito was reacting to Obama's bald faced lie, not his criticism of the ruling.

Octus

It would make SCJOTUS much easier if they would take the "Congress shall make no law..." part of the constitution seriously.

eric

"The record shows..." What record are you talking about? I only have SOTU back to 1913 available on line and of the 13 times the Court is mentioned there do not appear to be any which would be construed as critical. Can you tell me which years you are refering to?
thanks

Count de Money

I would like to point out the the ruling by SCOTUS was a constitutional ruling and that the Obama, aside from getting the ruling all wrong, was urging the Democrats to reverse it by statute.

Someone who supposedly taught constitutional law thinks that statute trumps the U.S. Constitution? So either Obama was telling a bald-face lie to play to his supporters or he (or his speechwriter) is an idiot. No other choices here

Fred Williams

I certainly agree with you that "the core of the problem is that the Supreme Court is not 'apolitical, separate and detached from partisan wars.' " However, I would really appreciate your thoughts on just whose speech would be protected in granting first amendment political speech rights to a publicly and internationally owned for-profit corporation formed mainly for some purpose other than political speech whose stockholders hold a variety of political views, some opposed to the political positions being taken by the corporation, and none of whom would be liable (or socially sanctionable), as stockholders, for any libelous statements made by the corporation.

I accept that corporations are best understood under a "nexus of contracts" theory, but there is a tenuous connection between those with a claim on the corporation's assets and the use of those assets, such that tremendous amounts can be brought to bear on accomplishing political results for transnational profit purposes, and tilting the democratic process in the direction of financial power, relative to the kinds of proportional representation that so concerned the framers of the Constitution. I fail to see how an opinion rooted in the notion of corporate personhood (going back to the mis-cited Santa Clara County case) can be justified by the proposition that the corporation is really just a collection of people bound together by contract, as ordered by state law. That there are limits on speech rights has been part of Constitutional jurisprudence going back at least to Holmes' opinion in Schenck (later refined in Brandenburg). It seems to me that reasonable limits can be placed on corporate speech. 

I do agree that the legislation in question in the Citizens case is extremely problematic, but it seems the decision could have been made on narrower grounds, and possibly opening the door to leaving the ridiculous notion of constitutional personhood for corporations where it belongs - in the Supreme Court Hall of Shame.

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