« More on owning the corporation | Main | My Insider Trading Text Cited by Delaware Chancery Court »

03/10/2010

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

C.E. Petit

I think the problem here is that legally, a failure to ban is also treated as a positive endorsement. In other words, the securities bar (not alone, but in particular) uses purely Aristotelian logic, and defies the concept of the "excluded middle." Too often -- and insider trading theories in all forms are an excellent exemplar -- one sees the argument that since a particular trading practice or instrument is not affirmatively prohibited, it can therefore never be used as evidence or part of a scheme to defraud.

Now that I think about it, there's an area of law where this is actually much worse than in securities fraud: Copyright infringement claims based upon prior, obscure publications and similarity analysis.

save_the_rustbelt

Right, how can rich guys loot the economy is there is no CDS market?

Oh,...

Lindasy

I believe Seeking Alpha means 'affect,' not 'effect.'

Warren Bonesteel

You know, Professor, the problem with smart people is that they're often the last to face reality...because they're so smart that they can convince themselves that reality just ain't so.


see:
MISH'S Global Economic Trend Analysis
Calculated Risk
Zero Hedge
Market Ticker

Steve White

It's at best a misdirected prophylactic, If the problem is fraud and manipulation, ban fraud and manipulation. Don't ban gambling, ban point shaving.

Well sure, except that it's a easier to ban gambling than it is to root out point shaving. The more gambling we allow, the more likely it is that sharp operators will look to evade whatever surveillance and penalties we put on point shaving so as to make a lot of money. After all, the criminal mind weighs reward and risk differently than you and I do.

With a naked CDS, there is plenty of incentive to manipulate the market, many ways of doing so (some of which are quite subtle), and (given the usual state of political affairs) little attention paid to rooting out manipulation until a crisis occurs, when it is too late.

The harm to society is also much greater: if an NBA referee participates in a scheme to help gamblers shave points in a series of games, the losers are the game, the fans and the other honest gamblers. Society itself doesn't take a drastic hit even if the Lakers lose. In contrast, a naked CDS manipulation has the potential to torpedo a national economy.

That Greece has clearly created most of its own problems doesn't change the fact that a naked CDS manipulation could bring down the Greek economy -- indeed, the incentive there is higher than trying a similar act of fraud against the US economy, since the Greeks are in more trouble, the fraud would be easier to pull off (fewer dollars up front invested by the manipulators) and the fraud would be more likely to succeed.

Your position is that of a purist, mine is that of a cynical realist: I understand just how big the incentives are to rig a naked CDS, and I don't like the consequences of a successful one. I would ban them and require anyone buying a CDS to have a clear interest in the financial instrument being insured.

David Alexander

I don't understand why the insurance analogy is not apt here. Murder is illegal anyway, yet we ban those without an insurable interest from buying life insurance policies to avoid the moral risk of murder; arson is illegal, yet no insurance company will sell a $300K policy on a $100K house, to avoid the risk of fire from "friction" between the value of the house and the value of the policy. So if there is a recognizable risk of fraud and manipulation by holders of naked CDSs, why not avoid it in the same manner? What is the distinction between the moral risks of CDS fraud and insurance fraud that makes it acceptable to address one but not the other?

Paul Snively

I wouldn't be surprised if http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/appel/intractability-financial-derivatives also turned out to be relevant to CDSes as well as CDOs, but I haven't actually attempted a direct comparison, so caveat emptor.

Jeff

You can always buy a long term OTC put option against a companies fixed income issues to "bet" on a failure. In some ways a CDS is just a special type of put option. Usually triggered by a default as opposed to a specific strike price but the same kind of bet.
At this point in time I am not actually aware of any CDS ever having been paid off, i.e. a company defaults and someone has to pay off the CDS's.
As I understand it the AIG problem was a margin call that they could pay.

Stunned and Amazed

Explain the taxpayer bailout of AIG please.

Arthur Pendennis

I thought the greater problem in the past was that some of those writing the insurance did not have reserves to back them up. Wasn't that the problem AIG had?

Though I am also not sure that, where a country as small as Greece is concerned, the risk that someone having purchased a large amount of insurance might try to manipulate their debt has been sufficiently addressed. In other words, I don't feel entirely comforted by the argument in point 1 where current laws against point-shaving might not be working that well. Perhaps if adequate disclosure was made on who was wagering what on whom, I might feel better about detecting or deterring the point shaving.

matt

Having had this discussion with SEC Chairman Cox in 2008, the fractionization and hiving of various revenues and income streams from the underlying securities led to a market in which the interrelationships of those derivitives became opaque. The consequence was a meltdown of the financial system with trillions of dollars lost by investors.

When pricing risk into the CDS's there were inadequate or nonexistent benchmarks against which to measure that risk. In the end, no one knew who owned what, and there was a cascading effect as a single event would affect multiple financial instruments.

The problem still exists and has not been resolved.New CDS's are now being offered to the market. The issues are transparency, leverage and the complex interrelationships of derivatives.

AD

The Economic Meltdown...

Don't blame me, and don't blame thee, blame that CDS behind the tree.

CHM

The ole Saturday Night Live crew had a scit about razor blades years ago after Gilette came out with a -2- razor blade. At that time their joke was we will do -5- razor blade. The point being enough is enough, overkill. Insuring the insurance and insuring the insurance is OVER THE TOP. You make a decision on your INSURANCE by the rate of interest charged up front. To have people placing/taking bets on debt they don't have an interest in is just gambling and serves no economic value.

There is a reason we do not allow people to purchase LIFE insurance on individuals whom they have no vested interest.. i.e. family members,valued employee, business partner....

Wes

'If I buy CDS on a company without owning any of the underlying debt, I cannot effect the health of the company.'

Gawd... pet peeve. Affect and effect are 4 different words. When effect is used as a verb it is essentially equivalent to saying 'bring about'. I'm sure the writer meant 'affect' as in 'alter/impact', but wanted to impress.

Doug Collins

From what I have heard, there is another problem with Credit Default Swaps that is more or less unrelated to debt- They can be used as a sort of uncontrolled, print-your-own money.

Charles Kindelberger in Manias, Panics, and Crashes: A History of Financial Crises, said (my summary), most of the bubbles through history were caused when a new form of money/value was invented or discovered. Initially it is uncontrolled by either law or any other feedback mechanism. I write you an IOU for a million dollars and you write me one.

Voila! We are both millionaires. The IOU might be in the form of tulip bulbs, stock margin borrowing or naked CDSs. As long as they don't get called, we are all good. If the crash comes quickly, then the punters and their creditors are hurt, but the damage is fairly limited. Everyone must believe that the lender of last resort will not act, then the lender must time it to act at the last moment. There can be no "Too Big to Fail" entities. If they are protected and bailed out too soon, all those IOUs start to be integrated into the world money supply and massive deflation can be the result when the IOUs are finally called and found wanting. All that money vaporizes.

Unfortunately, the recent bailouts may have made a future deflation more probable, rather than counteracting a present one. And, of oourse, the bailouts themselves are another kind of IOU.

After the crash, the most recent version of money is made illegal or tightly regulated and things are fine for about another generation. Then some financial wizard thinks up a new kind of money and the cycle repeats. This time it appears to be CDS's.

Sean

Call me crazy, but wouldn't outlawing CDS's basically put more of the risk (and the associated costs of said risk) back on the issuer and buyers of bonds?

In which case, Greece won't be able to borrow any more money at "X", but will have to price the risk in at "2x", for example, since no one else is around to assume the risk of their default.

In the end, Greece still couldn't borrow money at the rate they wanted, CDS's or no CDS's. But without CDS's, other folks looking to borrow money would have the risk factored into THEIR issuances.

Instead of speading the risk of default out wide, it's limited now to the buyer and seller of the bonds.

When are voters going to learn that lawyers and lawmakers have no clue about financial markets.

furytrader


I think there are a couple of things to clarify here.

1) The claim that "CDS levels do not effect the health of a company - they REFLECT the health of a company, or at least the market's interpretation of that health" is not always true. For example, in the case of CDS written against debt issued by a bank or other financial services firm, whose "good name" and trustworthiness is essential to its continued operation, if people start to drive up CDS prices for the sole purpose of making them go higher still (i.e., to generate momentum), it can be taken as a signal to other market participants that something is wrong, the firm's trust gets destroyed, credit lines start to get pulled and no one will trade with that financial firm. It can no longer do business. It goes bankrupt.

This contrasts with selling short the stock of a company that holds no debt but owns a lot of assets. There comes a price level where the value of the company's stock is less than the liquidation value of the enterprise - giving other market participants a reason to buy the stock below that price, almost as a risk-free trade. In this case, the short selling of a stock cannot drive this company's stock to zero.

The difference in these two cases is that the first company's very existence is based on the trust the market has in its continued operation while the second company's value and existence is based on tangible assets.

2) A CDS is nothing more than a put option on a bond. Can someone describe what kind of hedger would SELL (or write) CDS? I'm having trouble imaginging who that would be ...

I don't see why put options on bonds aren't traded the same way put options on stocks are: through a central exchange with daily market to market, position reporting and, as a result, greater liquidity. Seems like a no brainer, except that it would demolish the spreads enjoyed by the current market makers in CDS.

Don Meaker

Rich guys can't loot the economy WITH a CDS market. They can only loot the guys selling the CDS, and the CDS seller must be a willing partner in the looting. When too many people buy CDS at a given price, that should be a signal that the CDS seller may have calculated the odds of default incorrectly. When that happens, the CDS seller should refigure the odds (as bookies do) or limit his exposure (no more CDS on that available). If the CDS seller is right, he wins, if he is wrong he loses.

Don Meaker

Banning CDS means banning the transation that only takes place with a CDS. Result: Less money in circulation, deflationary prices, less growth, less opportunity for new starts.

Old money wins. New money doesn't get a chance to get made.

Doc Merlin

CDS and similar information markets are an easy way to make a market measure of a country's short to medium term fiscal soundness. This terrifies unsound countries. They would rather people not know.

ThomasD

I agree with Doug Collins. While on the one hand CDSs are described in terms of insurance, but when you look at how they actually function in markets they are really a means of facilitating transactions that might not otherwise occur without them. Effectively they represent increased liquidity - ie. they are money.

They are only considered insurance right up until the point when they would be called upon to cover systemic loss. Then the fiction is revealed, as it was with the mortgage industry bust.

If they ever really were insurance - adequate reserves determined by sound actuarial principles - then losses would have been covered (or at least substantially reduced) and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Lots of Reasons

And what if no CDS is available for a bond I own, but there is another CDS available on a bond whose default risk is highly correlated to my bond? Am I one of those terrible "speculators" now?

BTW, as far as financial firms go, worrying about the "good name" of financial firms being tarnished by naked CDS holders, would you ban analysts from issuing negative research reports on those companies (whether they own CDSs or not)? If I bet you that Goldman Sachs is about to implode, does that make Goldman more likely to implode? Does just saying it here in this comment make it more likely?

ian527

I have no particular problem with CDS's. They are an insurance policy and as such the company that issues them has to be adequately capitalized so that if they had to pay out on all of them (worst case) that were issued, they could. This was clearly not the case with AIG.

Wannabeer

Let's assume the insurance contract model is the appropriate one. In that case, the entity buying or selling insurance should have an "insurable interest" in the underlying reference obligation. In other words, there is a true hedging of exposure. It's in cases where there was no such interest (ie, where there was total speculation), that things got out of hand. Contrary to your analogy, it's not like "buying a stock because you think the price might go up." In that case, you actually have a real interest in the asset. For the same reason, it's not even like naked shorting of a stock, where at least you have a derived interest in how it does. Moreover, because shorting happens in a regulated, transparent market, I suppose we could make the argument that the shorts are a way of price discovery and actually help the market by correctly pricing the security.

Those who just "clipped the coupons" -- selling protection without any hedging, were the real risk. (Hello AIG). We couldn't identify it because the market was opaque, and even if we could have id'd it, no one had the power to do anything about it. You can solve the clipping coupon problem by requiring adequate reserve to meet the obligations on which protection is sold.

In other words, as is true so often -- Wall Street objects WAY too much when it comes to regulation. Face it, we have just come through a profoundly unregulated time. The result was profound, and fell mostly on people who couldn't afford it and didn't create the problem. So suck it up.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Social Media

Bookmark and Share
Follow ProfBainbridge on Twitter

Awards

Paying Bills

What I'm Reading

Blogs I Read


Blog powered by TypePad